Leeds Utd 2-2 West Ham Utd - Post Match Debate

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Leeds United v West Ham United
Leeds United
Leeds United
2–2
Premier League
04/01/2023
Elland Road
West Ham United
West Ham United
All-time record vs West Ham United
114
Played
50
Won
31
Drawn
33
Lost
+21
GD
44%
Win %
Home record at Elland Road
55
Played
35
Won
11
Drawn
9
Lost
+55
GD
64%
Win %
DateGroundScoreCompetition
16/01/2022 London Stadium 2–3 W Premier League
09/01/2022 London Stadium 2–0 L FA Cup, 3rd Round
25/09/2021 Elland Road 1–2 L Premier League
08/03/2021 London Stadium 2–0 L Premier League
11/12/2020 Elland Road 1–2 L Premier League
All-time top scorers vs West Ham United
#PlayerGoals
1 Russell Wainscoat 10
2 Peter Lorimer 8
3 Tom Jennings 8
4 Allan Clarke 7
5 Johnny Giles 5
Starting XI
Goa Meslier
Def Ayling
Def Koch
Def Cooper ©
Def Struijk
Mid Roca
Mid Adams
Mid Aaronson
Mid Gnonto
For Moreno
Substitutes
SUB Greenwood
SUB Harrison
SUB Gelhardt
SUB Klich
Unused Substitutes
-- Firpo
-- Llorente
-- Gyabi
-- Robles
-- Kristensen
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by weasel »

Carrick Dave wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:55 pm Bielsa didn’t play him, it was always Bamford if available.
In fairness Rodrigo wasn't fit at the start of our first season back in the Prem and Bamford started the season on fire. Rodrigo then got covid and a succession of injuries. When Rodrigo finally got fully fit and injury free, around the last ten or so matches of our first season, he had a decent run in the team and did well.

Like Cjay suggests though Bielsa has certain needs from the number 9 position and Bamford fit that role even when he wasn't scoring in the championship. Rodrigo, like Nketiah before him, wasn't really tailor made for the Bielsa no.9 role.

Definitely credit though to JM for getting the best out of Rodrigo. There is always the question of what he offers when he doesn't score but if he keeps scoring then it matters little as it should be enough to keep us up.
Cjay wrote: Sat May 17, 2025 4:23 pm I've pretended to support a team that's been crap for most of my life as part of a long term plan
Victor_Notts-17 wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2026 7:03 pm Did you post them because there's something wrong with your brain
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by weasel »

1964white wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:47 pm Aaronson has been deteriorating each & every game over the last few months.
He has. I was really excited about him early doors but he has been getting worse and worse. Roca too started well but has gotten worse (although thought he was okay last night). Rasmus started iffy, looked to get a bit better but then has been very iffy, Ayling keeps his place for me. So despite our new signings looking good at the start I'm worried about all of them, Adams is doing a decent job and playing well even if I feel he would be far better playing a different way.

it is a concern for me that a lot of players seem to be getting worse. Koch has been woeful, Gelhardt looks lively yet continues to just be given token minutes, Struyjk I think has been iffy for a bit too (although seems to be given a free pass due to being played out of position). It sems that whilst some have improved, such as Summerville and Rodrigo most are regressing.
Cjay wrote: Sat May 17, 2025 4:23 pm I've pretended to support a team that's been crap for most of my life as part of a long term plan
Victor_Notts-17 wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2026 7:03 pm Did you post them because there's something wrong with your brain
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by Chilli D »

weasel wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:05 am No real blame on Marsch last night albeit I still think we are handicapped by his tactics and that West Ham were thoroughly woeful and there for the taking. Marsch was the one though who told us just a few weeks ago that Gnonto wasn't good enough for the first team, something I strongly disagreed with at the time.
Well he's certainly proved Jesse wrong if he did say that. He's become undroppable at the moment, best player on the pitch last night.
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Re: Leeds Utd 2-2 West Ham Utd - Post Match Debate

Post by YorkshireSquare »

Still annoyed we didn't win that game. We are our own worst enemies!
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by YorkshireSquare »

weasel wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:05 am No real blame on Marsch last night albeit I still think we are handicapped by his tactics and that West Ham were thoroughly woeful and there for the taking. Marsch was the one though who told us just a few weeks ago that Gnonto wasn't good enough for the first team, something I strongly disagreed with at the time.

Do we keep blaming individuals for errors or are our issues more systemic?

The amount of times Koch and Aaronson gave the ball away last night was unforgivable but is Jesse asking the playes to do something they are not capable of or does his system not provide them with the options they need for an out ball? We had most of the ball last night but a large amount of the game, in the furst half particularly was played in our half.
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by Irish Ian »

BlackHillsPaul wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:17 pm I'm not sure what point you are trying to make Ian. Are you disagreeing with my take? Or or you backing it up? My point was about width.
All those goals came from using the wide areas Paul.

And as I said that was just a quick mental survey.
'
"Football is about the people and the players,” he said. “Then there are those who will mingle in the middle: the coaches, executives and journalists. That last group represents the worst part about football" Marcelo Bielsa
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by CHAPELALLMAN »

YorkshireSquare wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:23 am Do we keep blaming individuals for errors or are our issues more systemic?

The amount of times Koch and Aaronson gave the ball away last night was unforgivable but is Jesse asking the playes to do something they are not capable of or does his system not provide them with the options they need for an out ball? We had most of the ball last night but a large amount of the game, in the furst half particularly was played in our half.
Maybe Koch and Aaronson are just not good enough players ? I think that overall Koch has been a big let-down since we signed him. Aaronson has been dire in recent games - he needs dropping.

Those C/B signings on promotion ( Koch, Llorente ) have had a lot to do with the defensive shambles since the return to the PL - in 2022 the first team since 1984 to go a full year in the top tier whilst conceding an average of at least two goals per game. And many of those goals were conceded in the first two months of 2022 under Bielsa...I'm really glad that at last we have signed another C/B - boy, do we need one.
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by YorkshireSquare »

CHAPELALLMAN wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:39 am Maybe Koch and Aaronson are just not good enough players ?

Maybe, they keep making errors. But if they keep making these errors should Jesse be telling them to do something different?
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by weasel »

YorkshireSquare wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:23 am Do we keep blaming individuals for errors or are our issues more systemic?

The amount of times Koch and Aaronson gave the ball away last night was unforgivable but is Jesse asking the playes to do something they are not capable of or does his system not provide them with the options they need for an out ball? We had most of the ball last night but a large amount of the game, in the furst half particularly was played in our half.
Koch's distribution and general awareness is poor for me, I am not convinced by him at all - I may be on my own here but I would like to see Llorente play instead of Koch and see if he can get back to his best in his natural position on the right of defence.

I think the errors are part player and part system. Under Bielsa we saw that we were vulnerable if we gave the ball away carelessly when flooding forward. I think it was against MU that it was really highlighted (think it was in Prem S1) as we flooded forward, misplaced a pass in midfield and MU broke and scored very early on in the game. It was like MU had laid a trap (credit to OGS for that) and we fell into it. So a bit comes down to players as if the pass is accurate the ball is kept - note Man City beating a very good press that we did against them once the other week when they were able to one touch it out of defence and every player had options. Because City play like that every match they are used to it and regularly do it with ease. Because we are still in a bit of a limbo state between the MB and JM tactics we are extremely vulnerable to giving the ball away as players aren't on the same wavelength and as such last night Aaronsen played the ball back to Roca who wasn't expecting it (as usually it is knocked long). Similarly last week Cooper plays to Koch who wasn't really expecting it and wasn't aware of what was around him - if Koch is alert he comes to meet the ball and knows where to pass it before he gets to it.

I made the point that we played our best football last night (last 25 minutes +) when we had 6 championship players on the pitch (and 8 or 9 players that had been with Bielsa from day 1 of the premier league). Was this because we had players that wanted to pass, wanted to move and wanted to get into positions and knew had to play decent football - did the players actually revert to playing the Bielsa way instead of the JM way? Was that why JM was so angry in the press conference? At the end of the match last night only Adams was on the pitch that hadn't been at the club since we started our first match back in the premier league 2 1/2 seasons ago.

For me we looked so much more comfortable with Ayling on the right, sure the end product at times from Ayling was poor (and Rasmus probably is better with the final ball) but the linking up and intelligence was much better. Harrison looked lively when he came on, was this helped by the fact that when he came on the only non-Bielsa players on the pitch were Adams and Gnonto? Klich looked good, coming on at the same time as Harrison.
Cjay wrote: Sat May 17, 2025 4:23 pm I've pretended to support a team that's been crap for most of my life as part of a long term plan
Victor_Notts-17 wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2026 7:03 pm Did you post them because there's something wrong with your brain
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by Barlow Boy »

1964white wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:59 pm Do you have far to travel, Barlow?

Leaving home here in East Yorks about 4.20pm
We tend to meet up 3 hours before kick off, have a couple of pints etc and it’s a 45 minute drive for me to the pub and leaving so early gets me out of any traffic build ups.

From memory, you’re a bit further east than me but not that much I don’t think ?
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by BGwhite »

1964white wrote:Just back home!

Apart from one bit of quality, the rest of the first-half was a defensive fiasco, these are supposed to be Premier League players, but they are unable to move or pass the ball around efficiently & effectively, it's like watching a bunch of schoolboys in a playground.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother!

I'm off to bed Image
This is so correct and it's the reason I no longer watch Leeds. It's just a pathetic way of playing football at this or any level. Kick and rush it used to be called, maybe still is, but f me it is awful to watch. I read the comments on here and it justifies my decision, it's far better than watching dross run around like clowns .

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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by BGwhite »

weasel wrote: No real blame on Marsch last night albeit I still think we are handicapped by his tactics and that West Ham were thoroughly woeful and there for the taking. Marsch was the one though who told us just a few weeks ago that Gnonto wasn't good enough for the first team, something I strongly disagreed with at the time.
Marsh won't be happy till he gets all his former players at ER. Good luck to the twat.

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Re: Leeds Utd 2-2 West Ham Utd - Post Match Debate

Post by CHAPELALLMAN »

YorkshireSquare wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:19 am Still annoyed we didn't win that game. We are our own worst enemies!
The YEP today is bemoaning the fact that this team are so much prone to self-harm.
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

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Barlow Boy wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:43 am We tend to meet up 3 hours before kick off, have a couple of pints etc and it’s a 45 minute drive for me to the pub and leaving so early gets me out of any traffic build ups.

From memory, you’re a bit further east than me but not that much I don’t think ?
The traffic problems were horrendous last night, we arrived at ER half an hour later than we usually do.
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by 1964white »

YorkshireSquare wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:43 am Maybe, they keep making errors. But if they keep making these errors should Jesse be telling them to do something different?
The players are the blame, there are no excuses Cooper, Aaronson & Pascal can make for three of our last five goals conceded, simple errors our players never seem to eradicate from their game, there were oceans of space around them.

How Koch got away with his cluster of daft mistakes last night, god only knows. You can now see why he wasn't selected for the Germany World Cup squad
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

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1964white wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:54 pm The traffic problems were horrendous last night, we arrived at ER half an hour later than we usually do.
It wasn’t much better coming home, train strikes don’t help of course forcing everyone on to the roads.
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Re: Leeds Utd 2-2 West Ham Utd - Post Match Debate

Post by mentalcase »

CHAPELALLMAN wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:47 pm The YEP today is bemoaning the fact that this team are so much prone to self-harm.
This is of course correct, the first 40 seconds showed what we were in for , 30 seconds into the game, Koch sends a pass astray when a United player is less than 6 yards away, 10 seconds later, 40 seconds after kick-off, Rodrigo passes the ball the a wham player, there's simply no excusing either, particularly rodrigo as there was no United player in front of him, that set the tone for the remaining 93 minutes, outrageous.
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Re: Leeds Utd 2-2 West Ham Utd - Post Match Debate

Post by Chilli D »

mentalcase wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:15 pm This is of course correct, the first 40 seconds showed what we were in for , 30 seconds into the game, Koch sends a pass astray when a United player is less than 6 yards away, 10 seconds later, 40 seconds after kick-off, Rodrigo passes the ball the a wham player, there's simply no excusing either, particularly rodrigo as there was no United player in front of him, that set the tone for the remaining 93 minutes, outrageous.
Tbf West Ham gave the ball away almost as much as we did which is why the game looked so frantic because neither side could hold on to the ball for long.
What I will say is that neither side settled for a point at 2-2 which they could have done. Not good for the ticker though.
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Re: Leeds Utd 2-2 West Ham Utd - Post Match Debate

Post by mentalcase »

Chilli D wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:19 pm Tbf West Ham gave the ball away almost as much as we did which is why the game looked so frantic because neither side could hold on to the ball for long.
What I will say is that neither side settled for a point at 2-2 which they could have done. Not good for the ticker though.
I agree, but, I don't care about any other team, it infuriates me that our team are unable to put a pass of less than 6 yards to each other on a regular basis, how many times during just one half do we constantly either pass astray or send it into touch, it's unforgivable, this is professional football, it's all too frantic.
I live in hope we'll see a better team this season :tup:
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Re: Leeds Utd v West Ham Utd Match Thread

Post by YorkshireSquare »

1964white wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:05 pm The players are the blame, there are no excuses Cooper, Aaronson & Pascal can make for three of our last five goals conceded, simple errors our players never seem to eradicate from their game, there were oceans of space around them.

How Koch got away with his cluster of daft mistakes last night, god only knows. You can now see why he wasn't selected for the Germany World Cup squad

I'm close to suggesting Llorente comes in for Koch
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