FIFA World Cup 🇺🇸 🇲🇽 🇨🇦 2026

[The Subhuman]

It's funny you mention Tim Vickery

He's said he thinks the best player ever on more than one occasion is . . . .

Alfredo Di Stefano

So we are all wrong

I'm too young for Di Steffano and Eusabio

[weasel]

Yep, Spain beat Portugal-Belgium-France-Argentina in a row conceding only one goal. England don't beat any of them, let alone all. Yes I know they beat France in the dead rubber exhibition, but once France took it seriously, they scored four goals.

Spain are on a different planet to everyone else atm. The midfield is something else.

You just have to look at Spain's results to notice how easy our runs have been in recent competitions. We got to the semi final having beaten the mighty Mexico - woo we're brilliant!

[weasel]

So you would be ok with Leeds behaving like that if it meant success? I wouldn’t. Fighting with the Spanish at the end. Some of the most disgraceful scenes I have ever witnessed. Thank christ they lost. Their behaviour throughout the tournament was tiresome but yes if you win then its all good.
You can’t honestly tell me you wouldn’t like to smash Enzo Fernandez face with a brick.
See , I am turning in to a South American.

In a one off game such as a cup final then yes - say we were playing Man U in their pomp etc - you find a way to win. Win a few cups etc and then focus on trying to win it in a better way.

Now that may seem contradictory to some of you with ,me loving what Bielsa did for us, but the difference is that Bielsa's way of playing elevated our team to be better than they were. Would that team have been better if they'd been nasty? Very much doubt it, except for maybe Berardi and PJ. It is like when some fans (or pundits) say the Bielsa side would have been better of goingmore defensive etc when we had the bad run and he got sacked. But our best chance of picking up wins was by overachieving in some matches even if it meant getting dicked in others. With the limited players we had available it wasn't like turning into a snarling nasty side was gonna make Tyler Roberts, Sam Greenwood etc into Messi and Enzo.

So to simplify Bielsa's way of play got the best out of our team and perhaps Argentina's way of playing got the best out of them. Did Revie's way of playing get the best out of Leeds as some would argue that when he simply let the boys play we were a better team.

[weasel]

I'm too young for Di Steffano and Eusabio

They might still fancy you (admittedly they are both dead now but they should be good and stiff).

[Cjay]

Not really.

THE truth

Shining example

[Cjay]

I'm too young for Di Steffano and Eusabio

As am I

Interesting one Di Stefano.

First player to win the Ballon D'Or more than once (probably would have won it more but he was already 30 when it first came out)

Maradona called him the best ever.

As did Pele eventually (after Maradona publicly criticised Pele for failing to recognise De Stefano)

And Johan Cruyff said he was his favourite player.

But because of how long ago it was he gets forgotten now.

[BlackHillsPaul]

It's funny you mention Tim Vickery

He's said he thinks the best player ever on more than one occasion is . . . .

Alfredo Di Stefano

So we are all wrong

We are not all wrong! But YOU are if you truly believe that Brazilian Football was Amateur level during Pele's time. South American football was very strong in those days.

[CUSSIE01]

[Cjay]

We are not all wrong! But YOU are if you truly believe that Brazilian Football was Amateur level during Pele's time. South American football was very strong in those days.

Amateur may be unfair.

But not as competitive as Europe.

Pele played in a state league, not a collection of the best in the country like La Liga or Serie A or First division.

It's different

[BlackHillsPaul]

Amateur may be unfair.

But not as competitive as Europe.

Pele played in a state league, not a collection of the best in the country like La Liga or Serie A or First division.

It's different

I would say Amateur would be more than a bit unfair.

For example, Pele made $150,000 in base salary in 1971. Which by the way was the 2nd year of the New Brazil Serie A. A truly National league. For comparison, George Best was the highest paid player in England. His salary was about $70,000 per year.

The bottom line is that top players in Brazil could earn much more money than they could in England or Europe. And the level of competition reflected that. And it was similar for players at top clubs across the continent.

[SG90]

You just have to look at Spain's results to notice how easy our runs have been in recent competitions. We got to the semi final having beaten the mighty Mexico - woo we're brilliant!

Yep, Tuchel has inherited the easy draws from Southgate. I maintain the sides in 96, 98, 02 and 04 were better than the last 8 years' sides, we just faced the big teams earlier in the competition, which is why they got further.

[SG90]

It's funny you mention Tim Vickery

He's said he thinks the best player ever on more than one occasion is . . . .

Alfredo Di Stefano

So we are all wrong

He was great, Puskas too. The GOAT debates are usually all about recency bias on what people saw on TV, so the pre-Pele era players are usually ignored.

The Mighty Magyars have to be the best side to never win the World Cup, followed by Cruyff's Netherlands and 90s Yugoslavia. Without the war, they arguably win World Cup 1994. Look at how good Croatia immediately were in 1996 and 1998.

https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/12/1 ... never-was/

[Cjay]

I would say Amateur would be more than a bit unfair.

For example, Pele made $150,000 in base salary in 1971. Which by the way was the 2nd year of the New Brazil Serie A. A truly National league. For comparison, George Best was the highest paid player in England. His salary was about $70,000 per year.

The bottom line is that top players in Brazil could earn much more money than they could in England or Europe. And the level of competition reflected that. And it was similar for players at top clubs across the continent.

1971 was the first year Brazil had a national league, before that it was a state league which Is never going to be as strong as a national one.

And even if the Brazilian league was strongest Pele was also most famous for his World Cups where he was playing with apparently World class players.

So was hardly a carry job like Maradona in 86 or Messi in 2022 and 2026.

[Cjay]

He was great, Puskas too. The GOAT debates are usually all about recency bias on what people saw on TV, so the pre-Pele era players are usually ignored.

The Mighty Magyars have to be the best side to never win the World Cup, followed by Cruyff's Netherlands and 90s Yugoslavia. Without the war, they arguably win World Cup 1994. Look at how good Croatia immediately were in 1996 and 1998.

https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/12/1 ... never-was/

Puskas is another one who gets forgotten.

And of course the first Ballon d'Or winner was Sir Stanley Matthews.

But nobody remembers him now given he retired the year before England won the World Cup.

Who knows how many awards he'd have won.

Even Messi can't match his longevity.

His career was so long he could have played against Pele in 1970n Maradona in 86, Zidane in 98, R9 in 2002 and Cristiano Ronaldo in 2003.

Nuts.

[malcolmw]

THE truth

Shining example

Something that has always irritated me with Messi - and anyone else guilty of it - it the theatrical diving - often when no other player is within a foot of him - of which he did quite a bit at this wc too. It is a bit of a South American phenomenon - one which he is very good at. One game against Billy B, Norman Hunter and Johnny Giles and Messi would be pleading to be subbed after 30 mins.

He will be remembered, like Ronaldo, as an amazing and talented player who made and scored some amazing goals. Did he change the game - like players like Pele and Cruyff did - no I don't think he has. Just a really, really good footballer - of which there have been dozens.

Mbappe is on track to overtake Messi, imo - and if Yamal continues - he will surpas that too.

Here - out of pure interest - is FIFA's ranking of the best players of the 20th century.

Pelé (Brazil) - 72.75%
Alfredo Di Stéfano (Argentina/Spain) - 9.75%
Diego Maradona (Argentina) - 6.00%
Franz Beckenbauer (Germany) - 2.50%
Johan Cruyff (Netherlands) - 2.00%
George Best (Northern Ireland) - 2.00%
Roberto Baggio (Italy) - 1.00%
Garrincha (Brazil) - 1.00%
Zico (Brazil) - 1.00%
Michel Platini (France) - 1.00%
Gerd Müller (Germany) - 1.00%

A ranking of the players of this century does indeed usually feature Messi and Ronaldo at the top. This isn't an elected list like the one above, but largely one put out by media outlets - to get eyeballs.
But if I look at that list compared to the one above - far more players there who I feel were giants of the game.

[malcolmw]

We are not all wrong! But YOU are if you truly believe that Brazilian Football was Amateur level during Pele's time. South American football was very strong in those days.

Yes I agree - it was amazing. You only have to look at the long list of naturally talented footballers who came out of Brazil in the 60's, '70's and even '80's. They defined the generation in many ways. Argentinian football wasn't close. (IMO). I do think it was Pele who was the inspiration for that next generation of Brazilian footballers.

I saw Brazil play Poland in Munich in the 3rd place game in the 1974 world cup and even that team of mainly subs was so talented. Jairzinho and Rivelino became 2 of my boyhood heroes.

All the more sad to see where they are now. South American football is a shadow of those days.

[SG90]

You just have to look at Spain's results to notice how easy our runs have been in recent competitions. We got to the semi final having beaten the mighty Mexico - woo we're brilliant!

Even when Greece shithoused the Euros, they beat Portugal in their own backyard (twice), defending champions France and the Czech Republic, who were the best team in the tournament. Insane run!

[BlackHillsPaul]

1971 was the first year Brazil had a national league, before that it was a state league which Is never going to be as strong as a national one.

And even if the Brazilian league was strongest Pele was also most famous for his World Cups where he was playing with apparently World class players.

So was hardly a carry job like Maradona in 86 or Messi in 2022 and 2026.

Nice try, but you are missing the nuance. Santos was the best team in Brazilian AND South American football in the 1960's. They were widely considered the best team in the world. During a time when they began working toward a true National League. In fact, it was the disappointment of 1966 that forced change in the structure of league play. That didn't just start in 1971. It was a process. Football was strong in Brazil during the 1960's. And so was the rest of South America.

But you keep moving the chains. You were absolutely WRONG about Brazilian football being "Amateur". It clearly and demonstrably wasn't. And I don't think it's any coincidence that Brazil won 3 out of 4 World Cups from 1958 to 1970.

BTW...I have not said that Pele was the greatest player in history. But he's definitely one of them. I'm just responding to your inaccuracies with regard to Brazilian football.

[Cjay]

Something that has always irritated me with Messi - and anyone else guilty of it - it the theatrical diving - often when no other player is within a foot of him - of which he did quite a bit at this wc too. It is a bit of a South American phenomenon - one which he is very good at. One game against Billy B, Norman Hunter and Johnny Giles and Messi would be pleading to be subbed after 30 mins.

He will be remembered, like Ronaldo, as an amazing and talented player who made and scored some amazing goals. Did he change the game - like players like Pele and Cruyff did - no I don't think he has. Just a really, really good footballer - of which there have been dozens.

Mbappe is on track to overtake Messi, imo - and if Yamal continues - he will surpas that too.

Here - out of pure interest - is FIFA's ranking of the best players of the 20th century.

Pelé (Brazil) - 72.75%
Alfredo Di Stéfano (Argentina/Spain) - 9.75%
Diego Maradona (Argentina) - 6.00%
Franz Beckenbauer (Germany) - 2.50%
Johan Cruyff (Netherlands) - 2.00%
George Best (Northern Ireland) - 2.00%
Roberto Baggio (Italy) - 1.00%
Garrincha (Brazil) - 1.00%
Zico (Brazil) - 1.00%
Michel Platini (France) - 1.00%
Gerd Müller (Germany) - 1.00%

A ranking of the players of this century does indeed usually feature Messi and Ronaldo at the top. This isn't an elected list like the one above, but largely one put out by media outlets - to get eyeballs.
But if I look at that list compared to the one above - far more players there who I feel were giants of the game.

It's each to their own I suppose.

Is a clear dislike for Messi on here given he didn't even get in our Greatest team we did a while ago which I imagine the vast majority of people would say is nuts.

Don't really know what more Messi could do? He's dragged Argentina to 8 international finals and won 3 of them whilst being named best player or top scorer 10 times.

He holds the official record for most open play goals and assists in football history.

He's the most decorated player individually and as a team in football history.

He's been officially named best player in the world 9 times.

Holds the Guinness world record for records held by a footballer.

He's just dragged what most consider a poor Argentina side to a World Cup final at 39 years old.

And the Super Ballon D'Or which has only ever been given out once (to De Stefano) is reportedly going to be given to him.

It's personal preference but to say he didn't change the game when he's done everything those players listed have done for far longer whilst being far more successful, consistent and brilliant is baffling imo.

Gerd Muller called him the best player in the world when Messi broke his scoring record

Beckenbauer called him god like

Cruyff said he was incomparable and on another planet.

Baggio just the other week called him the goat

Even icons know the truth imo.

But it's each to their own.

I'm grateful most of my footballing watching life has had Messi in it (and R9 before that)

[Cjay]

Nice try, but you are missing the nuance. Santos was the best team in Brazilian AND South American football in the 1960's. They were widely considered the best team in the world. During a time when they began working toward a true National League. In fact, it was the disappointment of 1966 that forced change in the structure of league play. That didn't just start in 1971. It was a process. Football was strong in Brazil during the 1960's. And so was the rest of South America.

But you keep moving the chains. You were absolutely WRONG about Brazilian football being "Amateur". It clearly and demonstrably wasn't. And I don't think it's any coincidence that Brazil won 3 out of 4 World Cups from 1958 to 1970.

BTW...I have not said that Pele was the greatest player in history. But he's definitely one of them. I'm just responding to your inaccuracies with regard to Brazilian football.

I would imagine teams like Manure and Real Madrid etc of that time would debate that tbh.

It doesn't change the fact and it is a fact that up until 1971 Santos played in a state league? That's true right? And is no conceivable way a state league can be as strong as a national one. No matter how nuanced the fact remains state leagues can't be as strong as national.

So I stand by imo he played at a lesser level week in week out that comparative players in Europe.

In Europe at the time you had legendary teams like Manure, Real Madrid, Benifica, Celtic, Ajax, Feyenoord, Liverpool,, Inter and AC Milan, Bayern, us etc.

Pele wasn't facing teams like that each week or month.

I don't doubt Pele was gifted, just think his reputation has taken on a bit of a myth (Maradona agreed when talking about Pele and De Stefano)