FIFA World Cup 🇺🇸 🇲🇽 🇨🇦 2026

[BlackHillsPaul]

I would imagine teams like Manure and Real Madrid etc of that time would debate that tbh.

It doesn't change the fact and it is a fact that up until 1971 Santos played in a state league? That's true right? And is no conceivable way a state league can be as strong as a national one. No matter how nuanced the fact remains state leagues can't be as strong as national.

So I stand by imo he played at a lesser level week in week out that comparative players in Europe.

In Europe at the time you had legendary teams like Manure, Real Madrid, Benifica, Celtic, Ajax, Feyenoord, Liverpool,, Inter and AC Milan, Bayern, us etc.

Pele wasn't facing teams like that each week or month.

I don't doubt Pele was gifted, just think his reputation has taken on a bit of a myth (Maradona agreed when talking about Pele and De Stefano)

Well, European clubs can try to debate it. But here are the numbers:

Intercontinental Cup (Club World Cup). 1962, 1963

Copa Libertadores. 1962, 1963

Campeonato Brasileiro Serie A (National Championship). 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1968

Campeonato Paulista (Regional/State Championship). 1960, 1961, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969

Torneio Rio/Sau Paulo. 1963, 1964, 1966

And YOU called this "Semi-Pro"...... In my best French accent. "I shall mock you again.

[Victor_OTT_17]

Y'all need to stop talking bollocks! If you don't believe that Messi is in the top three of the best players the world has ever seen, there's something wrong with you! He's arguably the very best! Eusebio, Stefano, Puskas, Pele and many others: wonderful players. R7/George Best.

But for me: Messi shades it. His record speaks for itself. Okay, this World cup has not done him any favours but he is not the manager. The manager is responsible for how Argentina played. Shame because on their day: they can beat anyone. Messi is the GOAT in my mind...

[malcolmw]

It's each to their own I suppose.

Is a clear dislike for Messi on here given he didn't even get in our Greatest team we did a while ago which I imagine the vast majority of people would say is nuts.

Don't really know what more Messi could do? He's dragged Argentina to 8 international finals and won 3 of them whilst being named best player or top scorer 10 times.

He holds the official record for most open play goals and assists in football history.

He's the most decorated player individually and as a team in football history.

He's been officially named best player in the world 9 times.

Holds the Guinness world record for records held by a footballer.

He's just dragged what most consider a poor Argentina side to a World Cup final at 39 years old.

And the Super Ballon D'Or which has only ever been given out once (to De Stefano) is reportedly going to be given to him.

It's personal preference but to say he didn't change the game when he's done everything those players listed have done for far longer whilst being far more successful, consistent and brilliant is baffling imo.

Gerd Muller called him the best player in the world when Messi broke his scoring record

Beckenbauer called him god like

Cruyff said he was incomparable and on another planet.

Baggio just the other week called him the goat

Even icons know the truth imo.

But it's each to their own.

I'm grateful most of my footballing watching life has had Messi in it (and R9 before that)

As I've said a couple of times. Its not about Messi's massive talent and skill. I dont think that can be questioned. He is brilliant.

His onfield behaviour has quite often been questionable. When he gets rattled he lashes out in ways that would get anyone else a red card immediately. He has also been massively aggressive with referees at times - again, no punishment ensues.

I'm not sure what it is, and I am not saying there's some sort of protection of the guy, but it is suspiciuos that he has got away with stuff others would not have. This to me is especially annoying as he is so often a captain - as he was yesterday in the midst of disgusting Argentine squad behaviour after the final whistle.
I would add that Ronaldo equally has a bad sportsmanship streak.

You talk about Pele being unfaithful or Best turning to alcohol - not trying to excuse that -but human flaws that had little to do with them as footballers - both had every inch the talent Messi does.

The mere fact that Messi has a considerable cloud over his head - for quite a while now - for these behaviours, takes him down a peg in my estimation.

I also wonder if he will make the contribution to football the likes of Cruyff, zidane, Deschamps or Beckenbauer did after hanging up their boots.

But as you say, each to their own. Thats what so great about football - so much to discuss and argue about.

[Jaydog]

Yep, Tuchel has inherited the easy draws from Southgate. I maintain the sides in 96, 98, 02 and 04 were better than the last 8 years' sides, we just faced the big teams earlier in the competition, which is why they got further.

86
Maradona was virtually unplayable yet they had to cheat to beat us 2-1

[Jaydog]

In a one off game such as a cup final then yes - say we were playing Man U in their pomp etc - you find a way to win. Win a few cups etc and then focus on trying to win it in a better way.

Now that may seem contradictory to some of you with ,me loving what Bielsa did for us, but the difference is that Bielsa's way of playing elevated our team to be better than they were. Would that team have been better if they'd been nasty? Very much doubt it, except for maybe Berardi and PJ. It is like when some fans (or pundits) say the Bielsa side would have been better of goingmore defensive etc when we had the bad run and he got sacked. But our best chance of picking up wins was by overachieving in some matches even if it meant getting dicked in others. With the limited players we had available it wasn't like turning into a snarling nasty side was gonna make Tyler Roberts, Sam Greenwood etc into Messi and Enzo.

So to simplify Bielsa's way of play got the best out of our team and perhaps Argentina's way of playing got the best out of them. Did Revie's way of playing get the best out of Leeds as some would argue that when he simply let the boys play we were a better team.

We are talking about their behaviour in general here.
Including after matches have ended. So yes that is contradictory. Lets see what the FIFA investigation concludes because there should be some sanctions re the end of the final & the banner.
Oh hang on thats Infantpedo so probably £7.65 fine and a slapped bottom.

[SG90]

86
Maradona was virtually unplayable yet they had to cheat to beat us 2-1

Yep in 1998, we lost to Argentina on penalties after having 10 men for 70 mins. Had they won, it was a very good Netherlands side, then Brazil with the , then France with prime Zidane. No chance this lot reach the semis with that draw.

[Jaydog]

Yep in 1998, we lost to Argentina on penalties after having 10 men for 70 mins. Had they won, it was a very good Netherlands side, then Brazil with the , then France with prime Zidane. No chance this lot reach the semis with that draw.

And Tuchel is fast becoming a German Southgate which is probably an insult to Gareth. If he doesn’t make the final at Euro 2028 is he worse than Southgate?
Surely it will be Howe next. For better or for worse it has to be an English manager.

Spain.
Men's football (5 titles 2022-2026)
Senior: 1 x World Cup (2026); 1 x European champions (2024); 1 x Nations League (2023).
Under-23: 1 x Olympic gold medal winners (2024).
Under-19: 1 x European champions (2026).

[GreennWhite]

The England manager has just taken you to the best place finish in a world cup since 1966 and some fans want rid of him

[weasel]

We are talking about their behaviour in general here.
Including after matches have ended. So yes that is contradictory. Lets see what the FIFA investigation concludes because there should be some sanctions re the end of the final & the banner.
Oh hang on thats Infantpedo so probably £7.65 fine and a slapped bottom.

I was talking in terms of just the attempt to win the match. Yes the aftermath was extremely unsqvoury - but equally didn't Bellingham get up to some post-match naughtiness but that seems to have been forgotten about,

And we don't really know the ins and outs of it all. That spanish sub may have been gobbing off and deserved a slap. At the end of the game you should be gracious in victory, he may have just been an annoying little sh*t showing no respect etc. Be very hard to keep emotions/temper in check after such an important match is someone is going all out to wind you up.

[SG90]

The England manager has just taken you to the best place finish in a world cup since 1966 and some fans want rid of him

I don't want him sacked, my point is just that England have had easy draws, which is why they've gone further than previous sides. Whenever they face a top side they lose, we've just been on the side without them for the most part.

96 - Lost to Germany (pens) Semi Finals
98 - Lost to Argentina (pens) R16
02 - Lost to champions Brazil in QF (stacked team with so many superstars)
04 - Lost to host Portugal (pens) QF

I don't see either this side, or the Southgate side, winning any of those

[Jaydog]

I don't want him sacked, my point is just that England have had easy draws, which is why they've gone further than previous sides. Whenever they face a top side they lose, we've just been on the side without them for the most part.

96 - Lost to Germany (pens) Semi Finals
98 - Lost to Argentina (pens) R16
02 - Lost to champions Brazil in QF (stacked team with so many superstars)
04 - Lost to host Portugal (pens) QF

I don't see either this side, or the Southgate side, winning any of those

Tuchel a bit different to Southgate though.
He has a pedigree that Southgate doesn’t.
And when it came down to the crunch he bottled it and blamed the English DNA.
Now him & Barry are lauding a 3rd place finish which I consider any losing semi finalists to be anyway.

[Jaydog]

I was talking in terms of just the attempt to win the match. Yes the aftermath was extremely unsqvoury - but equally didn't Bellingham get up to some post-match naughtiness but that seems to have been forgotten about,

And we don't really know the ins and outs of it all. That spanish sub may have been gobbing off and deserved a slap. At the end of the game you should be gracious in victory, he may have just been an annoying little sh*t showing no respect etc. Be very hard to keep emotions/temper in check after such an important match is someone is going all out to wind you up.

I can tell you dont like Bellingham but wasn’t he just channeling his inner South American. This is the fire we need isn’t it?
I understand the point you are making but it was very typical of them to behave like that in defeat afterall they celebrated in our faces after the semi and bar the Bellingham tap I don’t remember any violence.
And accusing Rodri of trying to influence the ref.
Pot & kettle methinks

[whiteswan]

The England manager has just taken you to the best place finish in a world cup since 1966 and some fans want rid of him

That's why it's so galling how we exited. As you say he took us to our best finish since 1966 but had the chance to take us further but totally blew it with his ridiculous subs. The Gordon one was utter stupidity.

[PhoenixUnited]

The England manager has just taken you to the best place finish in a world cup since 1966 and some fans want rid of him

Since 1966, year on year there has been this increasing hype, getting worse since the advent of the internet and social media, of the ability of the England team to win the (insert competition / tournament) which the fans get delirously excited about letting their imaginations run wild.

I just inwardly groan each time I hear "it's coming home". So bloody embarassing to hear that now. All to a point where when it goes t*ts up the fans turn into some kind of lynch mob and, nowadays, keyboard warriors go into meltdown. I daresay even winning a trophy will come with attached criticism!

Till the next time!

[The Subhuman]

I can tell you dont like Bellingham but wasn’t he just channeling his inner South American. This is the fire we need isn’t it?
I understand the point you are making but it was very typical of them to behave like that in defeat afterall they celebrated in our faces after the semi and bar the Bellingham tap I don’t remember any violence.
And accusing Rodri of trying to influence the ref.
Pot & kettle methinks

Watching this may make you change minds about Bellingham and if it doesn't ....

[The Subhuman]

I can tell you dont like Bellingham but wasn’t he just channeling his inner South American. This is the fire we need isn’t it?
I understand the point you are making but it was very typical of them to behave like that in defeat afterall they celebrated in our faces after the semi and bar the Bellingham tap I don’t remember any violence.
And accusing Rodri of trying to influence the ref.
Pot & kettle methinks

Watching this may make some change minds about Bellingham and if it doesn't ....

[BlackHillsPaul]

The England manager has just taken you to the best place finish in a world cup since 1966 and some fans want rid of him

We Americans would have snatched your arm off to get that 3rd place Bronze Medal.

But Tuchel absolutely got the tactics wrong against Argentina. He should have never bunkered...

[Jaydog]

Watching this may make you change minds about Bellingham and if it doesn't ....

Yes I saw that. Seems a decent young man to me.
He has been labelled nasty by some just because he squares up to some nasty Argies and confronts Messi for having his arm around his neck. Good for him I say.

[Lumiukko]

Watching this may make some change minds about Bellingham and if it doesn't ....

Good on Bellingham. I don't get the stick he is getting at all. He had every right to confront the Argentinians for their unsportsmen-like behaviour. Clearly a well educated and thoughful individual and England's one true superstar.

Disappointing how many of the England team walked on by the reporter without as much as an acknowledgement, though I did see Eze say something and gave him a shoulder pat so at least acknowledged him.

[GreennWhite]

The point i am trying to make about Tuchel and all the talk about him not being good enough and needs to be replaced is that at what point do you separate the players from the manager when things don't go as planned.
Of course Tuchel made a bad mistake, very bad, in the way he tried to deal with the game once England went ahead. But how many managers have made bad mistakes at crucial times ? A hell of a lot i would say. Can he not be forgiven and given another chance to put the things right that he got wrong. He must realize he cocked it up big time in the Argentina game. You cant just keep on throwing away managers every time they get something wrong, and at what point do you put some or all of the blame on the players. I'm not an England fan but it just seems like year after year, after year we hear all of the same stuff once England done win a trophy. And what do they do ? they change yet another manager and achieve very little. England have, and always have had, lots of very good players over the years and yet they still haven't won a major trophy. Is that down to previous managers or players or a mixture of both. You need to get a manager in place and be prepared to keep him in place to build good consistency over a good few years otherwise its just going to be the same for many years to come.